Parliamentary Committee Notes: Question Period October 24–28, 2022
Question Period, Monday, October 24, 2022
Ms. Raquel Dancho (Kildonan—St. Paul, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Emergency Preparedness politicized the criminal investigation of the worst mass killing in Canadian history. The evidence shows he pressured the RCMP commissioner to release sensitive information to further the Liberal political agenda, knowing it could jeopardize the investigation.
He then denied it all on the record at committee, and for this reason, he must resign. Will he resign today?
Hon. Bill Blair (President of the King’s Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Emergency Preparedness, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, unfortunately, the member opposite is simply wrong. The independence of police operations underpins the rule of law, and it is a principle that I have no only respected, but also defended vigorously for decades.
To be very clear, as I have testified before committee, and as I have said in this House, I did not at any time direct the commissioner of the RCMP in any operational matter, including on the release of information. I did not direct her. I did not ask her. I did not even suggest that she do so.
As the commissioner herself has confirmed in her testimony before the Mass Casualty Commission, she did not receive direction from me and was not influenced by our government regarding the public release of information.
Ms. Raquel Dancho (Kildonan—St. Paul, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, at committee, the minister said to me, “At no time did I ask Commissioner Lucki to reveal that information.” I then went on to ask him if he knew about it, to which he said, “No, I did not.” However, on the audio recording released last week, Commissioner Lucki says, “it was a request that I got...from the Minister's office...I shared with the Minister...it was going to be in the...news release”.
The evidence is clear as day that either the minister or the commissioner is lying. Which one is it?
Hon. Bill Blair (President of the King’s Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Emergency Preparedness, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, in the House, the member opposite is quite free to engage in any speculation or fabrication she may wish. However, to be clear, subclause 5(1) of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act provides for the direction of the minister, but equally clear is that our government recognizes and respects that police independence underpins the rule of law and ministerial direction cannot infringe on the independence of the RCMP.
I did not at any time give direction. The testimony I gave before the commission was entirely the truth. It was the whole truth and nothing but the truth, as I have repeated here today.
Mr. Dane Lloyd (Sturgeon River—Parkland, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Emergency Preparedness just stated unequivocally in Parliament that there was no interference by him or his office in the ongoing investigation into the Nova Scotia mass shooting, yet on Friday, we received an audio recording with RCMP commissioner Lucki stating that the minister's office had requested that this confidential evidence be released to the public.
The commissioner worked directly with the minister against the wishes of investigators, who warned that releasing this confidential evidence could jeopardize an investigation. The minister misled Parliament. When will he resign?
Hon. Bill Blair (President of the King’s Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Emergency Preparedness, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, unfortunately, in these circumstances, it is apparent that the member opposite's reach exceeds his grasp. The simple truth is that at no time was any direction given by me.
Under Canadian law, the RCMP Act, the only person authorized to give direction to the RCMP is the minister of public safety. I held that role at the time. I respected the principle underlying the rule of law that politics will not interfere with police operations. At no time did I give that direction.
Those are the facts as I have testified and as the commissioner of the RCMP has confirmed.
Mr. Alistair MacGregor (Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, NDP):
Mr. Speaker, “it was a request that I got...from the Minister's office”. With those recorded words, the RCMP commissioner directly implicated the former minister of public safety with political interference during an investigation into the worst mass shooting in Canadian history. Canadians expect police investigations to be independent so justice can be done. The government should never be directing the RCMP to divulge sensitive information to push a political agenda. The families of victims deserve answers.
The minister claims his office did not interfere. Is he saying the RCMP commissioner is lying to Canadians?
Hon. Bill Blair (President of the King’s Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Emergency Preparedness, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, the independence of police operations is not only a principle I have always respected, but it is also one that I have vigorously defended for decades.
I can assure the House, as I have done previously and today—
Some hon. members:
Oh, oh!
The Speaker:
I am going to interrupt for a moment. I am very close in distance to the minister here and I am having a hard time hearing him. I would just ask all members, before they open their mouths, to please look to their whips and see what they are doing. If they are doing this, that means something I believe.
The hon. minister may begin from the top, please.
Hon. Bill Blair:
Mr. Speaker, as I have stated, the independence of police operations underpins the rule of law. This is not only a principle I have always respected, but it is a principle that I have vigorously defended over decades.
I say once again to the House that at no time did I direct the commissioner of the RCMP in any operational matter. She was not directed by me to release information. It was not asked of her. It was not suggested to her. The commissioner herself has confirmed in sworn testimony before the Mass Casualty Commission that there was no interference.
Tuesday, October 25, 2022
Mr. Stephen Ellis (Cumberland—Colchester, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, new evidence has surfaced with respect to the political interference in the investigation of the mass shooting in Nova Scotia in 2020. Sadly, 22 people and an unborn child died in this incredibly tragic event. It is exceedingly clear that the former minister of public safety politically interfered in the investigation of Canada's worst mass shooting. Nova Scotians want answers, not cover-ups. Such interference may be expected in a banana republic but not in Canada.
Will the minister resign?
Hon. Bill Blair (President of the King’s Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Emergency Preparedness, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, as we have said a number of times in this House, the independence of police operations underpins the rule of law.
This is a principle that I have not only always respected but one which I have defended vigorously for decades.
To be clear and explicit to everyone in this House, as I have been many times, I did not direct the commissioner of the RCMP in any operational matter, including in the release of information pertaining to the firearms used in this tragedy. Further, the commissioner herself has testified a number of times that there was no interference.
Ms. Raquel Dancho (Kildonan—St. Paul, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, the former minister of public safety said yesterday that his testimony at committee was entirely accurate, but the commissioner of the RCMP not only directly contradicted his remarks at committee but also in the newly released audio recording of the commissioner during the infamous April 28, 2020, meeting where she reprimanded her deputies. It stands to reason then that the minister is implying that the commissioner lied to her deputies at the April 28 meeting, and she lied to parliamentarians at committee. If that is the case, she should resign.
Did the commissioner lie?
Hon. Bill Blair (President of the King’s Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Emergency Preparedness, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, the member opposite is free to engage in any speculation and even fabrication that she wishes, although I would suggest that she might be somewhat more circumspect when she steps out of the House and makes such spurious allegations.
Let me repeat: I did not direct the commissioner of the RCMP in any operational matter. The commissioner has confirmed that in her testimony before committee and under oath before the Mass Casualty Commission. The matter is settled.
Ms. Raquel Dancho (Kildonan—St. Paul, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, the minister is expecting us to believe that the commissioner acted solely on her own and that she politicized the tragic deaths of 22 Canadians. She reprimanded her deputies for failing to share the models of the firearms used in those deaths and directly tied this to the Liberals' gun control policy. Then she told her deputies that it was the minister's office that asked her to do this. We are supposed to believe that she did this all on her own.
It is ridiculous. If that was true, she would be fired, at least by a government with any common decency or integrity.
Someone is lying. Who is it?
Hon. Bill Blair (President of the King’s Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Emergency Preparedness, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I have been clear, explicit and unequivocal that at no time did I give direction to the RCMP to interfere with
operations. I will simply quote the commissioner's testimony before committee and the Mass Casualty Commission, in which she said, “I did not receive direction and I was not influenced by government officials regarding the public release of information [or] on the direction of the investigation.”
That is the commissioner's testimony, and it coincides precisely with my statement that no direction was given.
Mr. Gérard Deltell (Louis-Saint-Laurent, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, let us examine the facts as they are. When the RCMP commissioner had a conversation with her acolytes, she said, and I quote, “[I flew] it up the flagpole because it was a
request that I got from the minister's office. And I shared with the minister that in fact it was going to be in the news release, and it wasn't.”
It could not be any clearer. The RCMP commissioner directly implicates the current minister. Could she act with the dignity befitting her rank and resign?
Hon. Bill Blair (President of the King’s Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Emergency Preparedness, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, again, what is very clear is that the RCMP commissioner, in her testimony before the public safety committee and in front of the Mass Casualty Commission under oath, was very clear that there was no interference, and that I did not give her direction. In fact, she did clarify for the committee that I have always been meticulously careful in not providing her with direction.
That is her testimony. My statement to the House and my testimony previously is that I did not give her any direction on any operational matter.
Wednesday, October 26, 2022
Mr. Stephen Ellis (Cumberland—Colchester, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, in the audio file Commissioner Lucki states, “the Minister wants to speak with me...once again, I dropped the ball.”
It goes on: “I have apologized to the Minister; I’m waiting for the Prime Minister to call me so I can apologize”.
The former minister of public safety needs to stop the deception, fiction, fabrication and disinformation. He needs to respect Nova Scotians and resign for his actions and political interference in the investigations of the deaths of 22 Nova Scotians and an unborn child.
Will the Prime Minister accept the resignation of this minister?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, as always, our thoughts are with the families as they continue to grieve, and my efforts are focused squarely, as they have been since day one, on supporting them.
As the commissioner and the minister have clearly stated, the decision on what information is released and when is that of the police alone, and that was fully respected.
Ms. Raquel Dancho (Kildonan—St. Paul, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, with this Liberal RCMP political interference scandal, the minister continues to avoid accountability by using very specific legal words concerning ministerial directives to the RCMP. We are not asking about legal directives. We are asking about political interference.
Did the minister, his chief of staff or anyone from his office discuss the forthcoming Liberal gun control legislation with the RCMP commissioner or her staff between the dates of the Nova Scotia mass murder and the April 28 press conference? Did they politicize the deaths of 22 people, yes or no ?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, Canadians expect their government to respond quickly and effectively to crises, and answer their questions, but it is interesting to see how Conservative politicians are changing their tune. I will remind the member that her colleagues from Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes and West Nova asked on at least three occasions, between May 20 and May 28, 2020, when all of this information would finally be made transparent and public.
I am focused on supporting the families affected by this tragedy and taking action to ensure that it never happens again.
Ms. Raquel Dancho (Kildonan—St. Paul, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, new evidence of this cover-up is coming out every day. We just learned that the RCMP director of media relations, who also happens to be a former Liberal staffer, is being investigated for covering up the audio recording that is at the centre of this entire scandal. That same audio recording has the commissioner directly contradicting the minister. There are lies here.
Who is getting fired, the minister, the commissioner or both?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, as all Canadians know, when an emergency arises, accurate and timely information is crucial.
As the commissioner stated:
Keeping the government informed through timely and accurate information sharing is not interference. It's standard procedure, and these situational updates are provided without compromising the operational integrity of an investigation.
Canadians rightfully have questions about the public communications that occurred during and after our country's most devastating mass casualty. That is why it is a focus of our inquiry.
Mr. Richard Martel (Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, the former emergency preparedness minister politicized the criminal inquiry into the largest mass killing in Canada's history. There is no use denying it, the evidence is there. It is serious. He put pressure on the RCMP commissioner to disclose sensitive information so he could advance the Liberal agenda, although he was advised that it could hurt the investigation.
Today, I have the following question for the Prime Minister:
When will he fire him?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, first, our thoughts are with the families who are still grieving. We are focusing our efforts on the assistance to give them.
The commissioner and the minister have reiterated many times that it is up to the police to decide what information is to be disclosed and when. This principle was fully respected in this situation and in all other situations.
Thursday, October 27, 2022
Ms. Raquel Dancho (Kildonan—St. Paul, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, throughout this RCMP political interference scandal, the minister has been using very specific legal words concerning ministerial directives to the RCMP, but whether or not he directed the RCMP commissioner does not preclude political interference or inappropriate pressure. It does not rule it out.
Did he or his staff have any conversations with the commissioner concerning the release of weapons information or the pending Liberal gun control legislation after the massacre and before the April 28 press conference, yes or no?
Hon. Bill Blair (President of the King’s Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Emergency Preparedness, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, the member opposite's assertions are completely incorrect. The independence of police operations is a key principle in our democracy. It is one that our government deeply respects, one that I have always respected and one that I have always vigorously defended—
The Speaker:
I am going to interrupt the member for a moment. It is pretty bad when I see people on one side who are trying to listen and are holding onto their earpieces because they cannot hear. I want everyone to be able to hear the answer.
The hon. minister will begin from the top, please, so that everyone can understand and hear what he is saying.
Hon. Bill Blair:
Mr. Speaker, as I said, the member's assertion on this matter is completely incorrect. It is not surprising that the members opposite do not actually want to hear the facts, but here they are.
At no time did I or any member of our government attempt to interfere in police operations. To be very explicit and clear with words I hope the member might understand, I did not direct, I did not ask and I did not suggest to the RCMP commissioner to release information. When she testified under oath before the Mass Casualty Commission, she said, “I did not receive direction and I was not influenced by government—
Ms. Raquel Dancho (Kildonan—St. Paul, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, we have on the audio recording the commissioner saying the minister's office requested that she do this. That is irrefutable. I am going to ask him again.
Did his office or he have any conversations with the commissioner concerning the Liberal gun control policy after that tragic massacre that killed 22 Canadians? Did his office politicize their deaths, yes or no?
Hon. Bill Blair (President of the King’s Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Emergency Preparedness, Lib.):
No, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Dane Lloyd (Sturgeon River—Parkland, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, former Liberal insider and RCMP director of issues management Dan Brien recorded the April 28 meeting with
Commissioner Lucki. When investigators came for the recording, he claimed that his phone had been stolen and that he had deleted the recording. We now find out that the phone was not stolen and that the recording had not been deleted from his personal phone: an honest mistake, I guess.
Did the minister's office communicate with Dan Brien about this recording, and when and how did the minister become aware of its existence?
Hon. Bill Blair (President of the King’s Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Emergency Preparedness, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, neither I nor my office communicated with Mr. Brien about any aspect of this matter. I have absolutely no knowledge about that except what I have read in the papers.
Friday, October 28, 2022
Mr. Dane Lloyd (Sturgeon River—Parkland, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, I guess we will never know because they stopped taking recordings of their messages.
Text messages released to the Public Order Emergency Commission are confirming a disturbing trend. The Minister of Emergency Preparedness repeatedly politicized Canada's independent police forces with the complete co-operation of RCMP Commissioner Lucki. Politicizing the deaths of Nova Scotians was just the beginning. Now we have learned that the Liberals sought to use independent police forces to provide political cover for their invocation of the Emergencies Act after they had already invoked it.
The minister has crossed the line yet again. When will he resign?
Hon. Bill Blair (President of the King’s Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Emergency Preparedness, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I think the weakness of the member opposite's argument is solely based on the fact that virtually everything he said is based on conjecture and innuendoes. There are no facts that contradict the statements I have made to this House. I have confirmed this—
Some hon. members:
Oh, oh!
The Deputy Speaker:
Order. Members ask questions and they should listen to the answers as well.
The hon. Minister of Emergency Preparedness.
Hon. Bill Blair:
Mr. Speaker, it is quite apparent that the members opposite are afraid of the truth, because it contradicts both their speculation and innuendoes.
I have been clear in this House that at no time did I ever interfere with the conduct and operations of the RCMP. This has been confirmed by sworn testimony from the RCMP commissioner. The truth is that this interference never took place. It is a principle that we have always respected and always guarded. It is a—
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